We've heard the saying before: "Nice guys finish last". Is it true? Not if you look at it through a victim mentality. However, there are ways to improve your relationships through assertiveness, not aggression. Through body language. Through understanding your relationship with your parents. And through understanding the idea of interest, intimacy and commitment. These are all things that we discuss on today's episode!
About the Guest: Dr. Michael Pariser is a psychologist, author, and transformation agent. After training with Dr. Robert Glover, author of No More Mr. Nice Guy, he started working a lot with men who identify as compliant and people-pleasing. He’s also the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy: The Hero’s Journey. It serves as a guide to the changes that Nice Guys need to make to become the men they’ve always wanted to be. Michael likes to think of it as a road map to healthy, integrated masculinity. If you would like to find out more about today’s guest, you can go to his website, drparisertherapy.com and if you go to the "For Men" section, that's where you can find out more about his workshops.
If you liked the episode, make sure to press subscribe, follow, leave a review and message me on Instagram @theimperfectpod or email me at Luke@theimperfectpod.com and join my Facebook group. I always always want to hear from my listeners and continue the conversation!
[00:00:00] Luke: Hello, imperfect listeners. It's your host, Luke West back with another episode where we discuss masculinity and manhood more intentionally and purposefully on this episode, my guest is Dr. Michael Pariser and we have an open, honest conversation about the challenges of dating using a lot of my own experiences.
You'll hear a lot about my failures. It's embarrassing. Um, but we also discuss why being a nice guy might be holding you back the importance of leaning in and leaning out on dates and what that means as well as how a lot of young men are misreading interest, intimacy and commitment in the early stages of dating.
Michael Perissa is a psychologist. Author and transformation agent after training with Dr. Robert Glover author of no more. Mr. Nice guy. He started working with a lot of men who identify as compliance and people pleasing. He's also the author of nowhere. Mr. Nice guy, the hero's journey, a follow-up to Dr.
Glover's book. It serves as a guide to the changes that nice guys need to make, to become the men that they always want it to be. And he thinks of it as a roadmap to healthy, integrated masculinity. So I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation. As always, if you liked the episode, leave a review.
Follow me on Instagram at the imperfect pod, email email@example.com. Join my Facebook group. And yeah, that's going into the show. Now you asked me any question you want and I'll do my best to answer. All right. That sounds good to me. So, Michael, I'm very happy to have you today on the imperfect pod to dusk.
Discuss masculinity and your book? Um, no more, Mr. Nice guy. I think it's a really interesting conversation. I think I got the title right there.
Michael: Well, not quite because there is a book called no more. Mr. Nice guy written by Dr. Robert Glover. And so my book, which actually grew out of his, uh, utilizes some of my own work and some ideas from Joseph Campbell. So it's called No More Mr. Nice [00:02:00] Guy: The Hero's Journey. And that, um, uh, to distinguish it from Robert Glover's
Luke: I read you sent me a copy and I read a few chapters and I'm really excited to talk to you about it today. Um, cause I feel like I've struggled with the Mr. Nice guy mentality, at least part of my life.
I don't think I'm there anymore because I realize it's a really much victim mentality. Like way of living in, in my opinion, it was very much, Oh, the woman doesn't look like me. Uh, but before we get into that, uh, the first question I always ask my guests is who is one person dead or alive that you'd like to have over for dinner and what we do
dead or alive? Who would I have for dinner? I guess I might have Albert Einstein for dinner. And, uh, I would probably cook, uh, vice versa and that's what's that? Or vice versa is a white deal, sausage and Swiss dumplings, maybe with red cabinet. Cause he's he was Swiss fitting. Um, and then you know how to pronounce it and, and the whole shenanigans behind it.
Back when I was younger, I had a, a brief affair with, uh, a woman in Switzer, Austria, but I, we went to Switzerland and she, uh, I told her how much I liked . Bought me, which is a maker,
uh, once. Okay. And now it's at a thrift shop or do you still own, it has gone the way. Perfect. Yeah. I'm actually really excited to talk to you. And I know that. So how would you [00:04:00] define. Masculinity first. And in terms of successful masculinity and, and one that reaps the benefits of, um, confidence and attracting the woman that you, that you want.
Well, um, I guess what we have to. What I would do is pull apart healthy masculinity from toxic masculinity and the two brands of toxic, toxic masculinity. When people read about or write about toxic masculinity these days, they're really talking about things like over aggression, uh, domineering qualities, uh, dominating mansplaining.
Not paying it, but the other brand is the nice guy brand, which is kind of passive or passive, aggressive and, and devious. It's in a funny sense, an aggressive man is probably more honest than a nice guy. Um, he's, he's more, he's less tolerable and he's more hurtful. But he's, he's also more honest, nice guys are trying very hard to be nice, but they, and not hurt people and make everybody happy, but they're devious and dishonest and they're hiding all the time.
So. Uh, a healthy, healthy masculinity revolves around honesty, integrity, and assertiveness, as opposed to aggression, which is putting out what you want, um, and standing in the vulnerability of your own, uh, feelings and desires, and then letting whatever other people. Oh, encouraging and allowing other people to do the same thing.
And [00:06:00] I liked how you made that difference between toxic masculinity in both like the over aggression, but also the really passive way. Because for me, you know, I do think that there is. A lot of toxic things about a passive man. And, and even from the nice guy perspective, I know that I have fit into that demographic.
And when I was reading your book, I'm like, you know, a lot of these characteristics applied to me. I wasn't. You know, I was the kind of the people pleaser and, and that wasn't trying to get women. Cause I know that there's guys who, who are overly nice in order to seduce or they, because they expect something that wasn't ever cause it why I did it.
I didn't do it out of expectation. I just, wasn't confident in, in. The man I was, or, or who I was, um, which is why I think it's really important to, to dissect that, you know, toxic masculinity also can be in an, an assertive way, a way that you get walked over. Um, which I think maybe a lot of people are doing now, because this is almost talking about masculinity in a very negative way.
And in a lot of, you know, times and from what I've seen. And that's been building for a couple of decades, actually. It's sort of started among the, you know, the cutting edge thinkers. It all started around 1970 at the beginning of the women's liberation movement. And then it kind of peaked and fell and peaked and fell.
Um, and then it hit a real point. A year ago with the me too movement. And, uh, it is, it can be very tricky sometimes to be a man and to be a healthy man and to be an assertive man and not get slated or not get lumped in with overly aggressive. So like, [00:08:00] Rob Dr. Glover and I, and people who work with nice guys talk about getting in the driver's seat.
Right. But, um, that doesn't mean throw your girlfriend into the trunk. It means. Hi, I'm going to take the lead, but I'm not going to insist on it. I would like to put out what I want and if it's okay with you, we'll do that, but I'm not going to enforce my will on you. I'm going to tell you what I want and I'll probably do it first.
That's that's taking the lead. I'm not going to stay on there and go, what do you want? What do you want? Where do you wanna go for dinner? What do you want for, where do you want to go on vacation? Like, what do you want to do this weekend? I'm going to tell you what I want. If you want to do it fine. If you don't want to do it, that's fine too.
I'm not going to insist on it. I'm going to work with you, but. I'm going to put it out first and be vulnerable. Yeah. And I liked how you define that idea of vulnerability was, was more about sharing what you wanted and going first. Cause I think that sometimes when people think about vulnerability, it's about opening up in every sense of the word and, and showing those dark spots of your life.
But that wasn't what vulnerability always seemed to mean to you in the book. It was, it was very much, uh, you know, sometimes it just means. Being aggressive is being vulnerable or being assertive. I sorry.
Vulnerable. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's very true too. Cause, uh, you know, a lot of the times I think about going on dates it's Oh, I don't really know what I want. Like the, the, the woman is saying, I don't really know what I want. I'm good for anything. Um, And then I'm just like, okay, we'll go here. And I, I'm the, I'm the one that typically has to confirm the location and it, and that's where it's confusing too, because it's like, well, now I feel is that mansplaining or not man, [00:10:00] but there's like a lot of questions as we were talking about navigating those conversations and it can get convoluted to say the least.
Right. And so one of the things that I've discovered is that there's no way to do it perfectly. And, um, you're always doing it in relation to another person. So one woman on one day, one reaction and a second woman on a second day might have a completely different reaction. So my, the way I kind of think about it is I try my best to be true to myself.
Say how I feel, what I want, put it out there. And if somebody says to me, Oh, that's too much for me. Okay. Well now we can adjust or we can talk about, but I, I start there. That's my default, these days, rather than what do you want? My default is, here's what I like. Here's what I'd like to do. Here's what I'm feeling and, and work in that direction.
Even, even though there's things that don't work all the time. Are there, have you ever seen, or do you see things that work out more consistently or things that stay more normal, whether it's first aid behavior or aunts, like practices, like, are there any foundationals that really don't change? Well, I think the ones that I'm talking about, I.
They may not work all the time, particularly because I'm not perfect and I'm not doing them perfectly all the time, but they sure work out a whole lot. If I say, you know, I like some I'd like sushi for dinner. Um, or if I'm saying, Hey, I feel sad right now. Um, or what you said just hurt me. You're on pretty solid ground.
And you. Are [00:12:00] going to get mostly, very positive responses. Even if you're talking about difficult things like, Hey, what you just said hurt me. And frankly, it made me angry. That's the beginning of a really constructive conversation, or it can be so all of this tense in a very positive direction. And if it does, it's a real solid foundation.
So one of the, the things that came up in your, in your book that I thought was really interesting is that the nice guy or the stereotypical nice guy always seems to have trouble building relationships with other guys or other men. Why, why is that a couple of reasons? I think the first is that most nice guys.
Have stronger relationships with their mothers than with their fathers for various reasons. It's kind of, it's often a big part of what makes a nice guy, a nice guy. Um, and not only is he closer to his mother because of that, he also knows. Much more. He's kind of trained more. And so it's a more natural thing for him to relate to women.
He knows how to relate to. A woman successfully because he relates to his mother. He doesn't know how to relate to guys because he doesn't know how to relate to his father. And in fact, in many families where nice guys emerge, the father is villain in some way, either by the mother or by the. Child or both.
And he's villainized for being absent for being [00:14:00] rageful, for being an alcoholic, for being insensitive, for being aggressive, for smelling bad, for being off with his buddies, playing golf, whatever, whatever it is, he gets villain. And so, um, and it, and it puts the boy. In a position of, of opposing the father.
In other words of, of trying to be the opposite of his father in some really fundamental way, and then getting along better with women and getting emotional, no rewards for what he gives women. Not the rewards. He wants rewards. Yeah. And what's the difference between the rewards he wants and the rewards that he ends up getting?
I think ultimately what he wants is lunch. Maybe love on sex romance, deep connection. And what he gets is he gets appreciation. He gets acknowledgement and he gets validation. These are what I call love substitutes. They're nice. You know, if I do something nice for you, you know, you're probably gonna say thanks very much.
And you know, what can I do? Like, you'll appreciate me for the things that I'm doing for you, but that doesn't, it's not much it's. They don't laugh. They come and they go they're short-term things. And they, um, it's kind of like, I think the analogy that I used in the book is they fill you up. But tell me temporarily.
So it's like driving a car [00:16:00] with a hole in the gas tank and you can get from one gas station to another one, validation, one acknowledgement to another, but that's it doesn't sustain. So you can't take a long road. You couldn't go. Cross country and feel confident and solid. You would just go from gas station to gas station.
It's like having a Tesla, you know, you're going to kind of have to charge every 250 miles. Yeah. It's not like a, that renewable energy source. No, that's not. It that's a good analogy. It's not. I guess the followup question would be to keep doing, make it happen. So you're constantly working rather than being able to kind of lean back or sit back and accept.
You have to go to work all the time and, and guys do this. They, they are always like doing something right. To please the woman or doing this or doing that, or, you know, learning how to give orgasms or learning how to stack the dishwasher or learning how to vacuum the car.
Yeah. So when, when you say that kind of happens in a marriage too, though, like that. That they're always learning. They're always proactively making sure that it, it works well. Not in every marriage marriages is that they tend to go one way or the other one party is dominant and the other party is not now.
That's not every marriage, but it's a lot of marriages. And so one person is the. Is the one who was easily upset or easily angered or easily hurt or easily depressed or emotionally reactive. And it can be the man or the woman. And the [00:18:00] other one is always trying to keep the peace or make that first person not upset.
So, so in the follow-up then too. Being more, just substitutes, loved substitutes. Do you think it's possible for men and women who are not, or who are platonic to carry those relationships through their life and like have good, valuable friendships? If, if, if it's kind of just substitutes or that might only be flourishing because of a substitute.
Absolutely. I have platonic relationships with women. The difference between the platonic relationships I have now, and the platonic relationships that I used to add is that in the old days, my platonic relationships with women were by, um, uh, My trying to have a romantic relationship with a woman being put in the friend zone, excepting that and continually trying to get out.
Whereas now I will have a friendship with a woman because her friendship is valuable to me because, uh, not because. In any way, trying to turn the relationship into anything other than it already is, was that only something that you learned after your nice guy phase around the same time? Yeah, I think that's something that'll a lot of guys struggle with.
And even though I feel like I've been a nice guy. Um, I've always been really good at getting female friends. I think I have two sisters. I like my mom, like I'm closer in age to my sisters. Uh, I grew up homeschooled, so my environment was very womanly cause my dad was in and out of the house working and about my mom stayed at home, but I always find it really fascinating that.
Guys struggle or can't keep their girlfriends. And I'm just like, I am very good with [00:20:00] my girlfriends and platonic ways. And I have people asking me for advice about that. Sometimes I'm like, I honestly don't know what to tell you. So what would you tell people? I would say, I would say the key to having a successful friendship is to not want anything more than the friendship.
A and B a friendship requires work just like a romantic relationship. Like if you, um, You have guy friends, if you never saw them, never spoke to them. They wouldn't be, um, very valuable. Friendships are ongoing. You have to do the same thing with a woman and you have to not want anything else. You have to not want to change it.
And that's the PR for most guys that I talked to, they have the problem that I used to have. They didn't choose, Oh, this woman would be a really good friend. I'm not interested in her romantically, but she'd be a really good friend. No, they got put in the friend zone and they're trying to get out. That's a very, that's a very different situation.
I also think that's interesting because a lot of guys, I talk like for me, every woman I look to look at right now in my single life is like, Oh, would I date her? Would I not? Like almost everything every time. It's a question of what I date her. Would I not? And that, that, that doesn't affect the friendship, but almost everyone goes through that process, even if they are a really close friend of, you know, I could see myself dating this person if they were ever single, but that's not why I'm friends with them.
Um, do you think it's possible for if your intention was to try to get her to be in a relationship with you, then not have those feelings anymore and just be friends and just want their friendship? Or are you talking specifically only if you're trying to get out of the friend zone. If I was interested in a woman [00:22:00] romantically and she put me in the friend zone, it would be very difficult for me to stay there and be happy.
I would constantly, in fact, I don't know about you, but me and, you know, My guess is a lot of the guys that I work with. If you get put in the friend zone, and by the way, you cannot be put in there, you have to agree to go. No one can put you anywhere except the police.
Um, if you're in the friend zone, it actually exacerbates a sense that you, that she is more desirable. It makes her more desirable because she's unattainable. And because you're in the friend zone, you get to hear all about how she's dating this guy and that guy and the other guy. And then the really annoying part.
Is how she talks about, Oh, this guy he's such an asshole and that guy he's such a jerk and how come they can't be more like you,
right. It's a disaster. No, I've, I've experienced that before and I liked how you said no one can put you there. You agree to go? I think that's what I was talking about. The beginning, when I said it's a very victim hood mentality is the idea that anyone can put you there. You can choose to not be their friend if they say no to you.
And especially I think if that was your only goal of being their friend in the first place. And it wasn't like, Hey, this person could be a friend and a potential life partner, or I could see myself with them. It's it's I only see this person as a potential girlfriend. Why would you want to [00:24:00] stay friends with him anyway?
He's like what, like literally, what is the point? Like, I don't, I've never understood that. Don't stop talking to them. Stop being friends with them. Yeah, no, I agree. A hundred percent, but a lot of guys don't get that. Yeah. You know? Oh, I'll be, we'll be friends, but then the fantasy is, and then I'll turn it around.
Whether they're, they they're aware of that fantasy, you know, consciously all the time. Maybe not, but. It's there. Yeah. Until you said that, um, now that they're in a relationship, it makes them more attractive because of their unattainable, which is something that I find myself too is, um, I'll see. A girl, who's in a relationship and she immediately becomes more attractive.
As soon as I find out she's in a relationship. One thing I struggle with is that, you know, sometimes on, on dates or if I'm talking to a girl we're talking about dating history, I'll say I've never had a real relationship before. And then that almost never is seen as a positive because it almost always means I've been seen as undesirable.
And at least, or that's what, maybe that's what I'm projecting in some way or unable to make a commitment. There's something wrong with you in the relationships they always ask, like, why not? W what, what should my answer to be that? And what should my answer to be to that, Michael? All right. So ask me the question.
Let's hear the question. So a woman asks me on a first day or second day. Why have you never been in a relationship? What, what do I say? I hadn't met you. Now that that'll get a laugh and then she'll go. Okay. No, but seriously. So, um, and then w what I might say is something, so what is the answer for me? Me, you're asking my honest answer.
I would say [00:26:00] that I've never found someone who lines up with what I'm exactly looking for both in terms of. Women like expectations, but also in terms of timing, uh, it's never seemed to be aligned. I've, I've gone on dates and I've explored a lot of avenues, but at a lot of times, it just hasn't lined up and, and worked according to the stars.
If they're into horoscopes, all I'll throw in something in terms of destiny and something in that realm. Well, that's a, that's a legitimate answer. Um, if I'm your therapist, I'm going to go,
right. And then I'll say, well, how old are you now? All right. So, so you're young yet. So that's still a legitimate answer. If you're 34, you can't pull that one off. No, do I, do I look 34? I hope not, but, but if you, if you're 24, you can pull that one off. Yeah. No. I, I mean, I feel confident saying it and I'm someone who, um, we we've talked and I lead with honesty and vulnerability.
And you might say I lead with too much vulnerability. I know that some people say that, um, especially with how we've conversed, about how I lean in a lot in on first dates. And let's get into that. Yeah. Well, let's get into that in connection with this, um, for, for your audience out there. Um, Luke and I had a conversation, we had a, kind of an introductory conversation and a week or two ago when we were talking about leaning in and leaning out and we're talking about it both emotionally and physically.
And so I'm going to do a little demonstration with my hands and every, in every, all human beings have a comfortable distance [00:28:00] and it's neither this or this, it's sort of Goldilocks, you know, it's about right here, right? For humans. It's about. Two feet, but it varies from culture to culture in Japan, it's much closer.
And in certain countries it's much farther away in America. It's a couple of feet. And if you're at that distance, a person will feel safe, but not as, and not intruded on and also not abandoned. And so when people like talk together, they tend to talk like this. And if one of them leans in the other one, leans out, if one of them leans out, the other kind of leans in and they try to maintain a safe distance and you see this with friends, they kind of right.
They're always about the same distance, but there's a really kind of tricky thing that goes on. It has to do with emotional feedback and something called proprioception. Proprioception is knowing where your body is in space. So, I mean, I know without looking, I cover my eyes. I know my right hand is up in the air and I know about that's proprioception.
So yeah. When I lean in my body and he's telling me, I'm trying to get at whoever or whatever it is. If I'm leaning back and saying, I want to get away. So now if we do the same thing like this, and here I am on a date, right. And I lean in, she's probably going to lean back. It's unconscious, but you see people do it all the time.
So if I lean in, she leans back. [00:30:00] Her body is saying, I want to get away. If I lean back and she leans in her body is saying, I want to get toward him. Well, which will be more successful. So when you're on a date, I recommend just lean back a little bit. In addition, if you happen to be somebody who is very open, if it's doubly important.
So if you're somebody who like kind of overshared and you're leaning in and oversharing, it's overwhelming, this person will be, it's like the flood is coming and I need to get away. So. You can still overshare, but if you lean back, the whole thing becomes something very different, a whole very different experience.
So, um, for again, viewers right here, I am, let's say I'm sitting up and let's say I'm on a date. And I, and I want to tell a woman something really nice or really open. And like we were just talking about, you know, why haven't I. You know, I haven't really found anybody who,
if I'm leaning in and going, you know, I haven't really found anybody that just like line up. It's pretty, it's pretty intense. Right. But I'm going to lean back and go, you know, I haven't found anybody that I really it's intriguing.
This one, I haven't found anybody. I really lined up. Well, I'm not sure I line up. I'm not sure I could find any, but she might go, let's see if he lines up with me. So it just has a different [00:32:00] quality and it has a different impact as I'm doing it. What I'm noticing is my. Um, kind of inflection is changing.
My emotional state is changing as I'm leaning in there's this kind of intensity and like kind of mind, you know what, I'm back over here. It's a kind of a, um, just kind of sit back easy and watch you and see what you do. It puts me a little bit in the driver's seat. Yeah. And, and that's a really good place to be on a date.
Last thing, if you think about like, think about all the movies you've ever seen or in real life as well. There's the nice guys. There's the bad boys, right? Is this how the bad boys are? No, they're very uninvested in distance. They're always like leaning against the wall, you know, Marlon Brando or something like they're leaning against the wall that they might have a tooth or a cigarette.
And it's like, it doesn't matter. It's like whatever, they're indifferent to the outcome, they're waiting to see what comes to them. And then they're going to pick and choose. Yeah. And that's something I've always struggled with because I am just the nature of myself. I've always been someone who's open. I talk a lot with my hands and with my body, um, you know, just.
Podcasting has shown me how much I'm interested in a lot of people and what I'm interested Eileen in. And that is almost always on a first date too. You know, if they know I have a podcast, sometimes I do feel like they're being interviewed just because I'm asking a lot of questions. I'm like, I'm not here to intimidate.
That's not what I'm trying to do at all. But when you explain to, as, as tangibly, as leaning in leaning back, it made a lot more sense. And I, I was just picturing like the last couple of dates I'd been on. And I said, well, I've been leaning in a lot like [00:34:00] that. Is, yeah, I get it. They gave me that, that, that frame of reference where I understood.
Um, so try, just try it as an experiment. Just lean in a little bit and sit, tell me you're not trying to intimidate. All right. Well, my bad posture. So this is typically how I would look and like, if I'm, if I'm leaning in, um, I don't really feel like I'm too intense because it's different when there's a camera.
Right. I, it's a bit different to me to visualize it now with someone, but you know, if I was, if you were actually across the desk from me, I'd have both my, both my elbows on the table with my hands in front of me, leaning in and taking up at least half the table, like in that way. Right. And do that right now and tell me that you're not trying to intimidate me.
All right. This is, this is it. Uh, it definitely looks a lot more intimidating and it feels a little bit more intimidating to you. I'm sure. Right. Tell me that. You're not trying to intimidate. I'm not trying to intimidate you. Right. But lean in and tell me that. Okay. Yeah. I'm not trying to intimidate you.
Oh, it does come across as creepy. Yeah. Now I want you to lean back, lean back in your chair, cross your arms over your chest and say, I'm not trying to intimidate. I'm not trying to intimidate you feel different. Does it feel different to you? You're you're the, the other side. Right, but does it feel different?
I'm not trying to intimidate you. It's fascinating body language, uh, as, as a, I talk about all the time, because even if we're talking about the, one of the things that annoys or frustrates me about the language of, of, or the conversation about consent nowadays is the fact that body language seems to me, nothing when.
Almost everyone that's had a sexual experience, knows that by languages, almost everything is literally language between the bodies is what [00:36:00] sex like is, um, And, and how that almost never gets in because I was watching this bill Burr sketch the other day where he's talking about. No means no, except when it doesn't and he's literally like, well, someone could be saying in bed, no, don't do it stop.
Right. And like, it's all cutesy, but if you read it back into transcript, it, it means something completely different because the tone and the body language are completely different. And I say, how, how can we ignore that in the conversation about consent? In the current day and age, which is what we seem to do and body language and mentioned know how to read body language better a hundred percent.
And I think a lot of times we don't. Um, but I I've always found that conversation really interesting. Hmm. Well, I, I hear you and I, I. I can understand that it would be very tricky. Um, it's particularly tricky if everybody's a little drunk or stoned and things are very confusing and. But I, I encourage men to do something different than it really kind of completely sidesteps the problem.
I I've never had a consent problem myself and the, the, well, yeah, nice guys stands to have it last cause they're willing to take no for an answer, but the, um, but I go a step farther. It goes along with leaning out. Which is I'm basically, um, I'm not trying to get in anybody's pants until she is coming on to me.
So, uh, again, it's like a bad boy, right? Part of the reason they get late it's because it's offered to them. They're not like drooling down some woman's cleavage, uh, and, and trying to get her clothes off. Just I'm going to wait because a, cause it makes I'm [00:38:00] confident if a woman and I get along, we're going to have sex.
It's not, it's not a mystery. Uh, they want it. And if a woman doesn't want sex, I don't want to have sex with her. Anyway. Um, I have a rule of reciprocity. I only. Want to be with the people that want to be with me. I only want to talk to the people that we are you and I, I only want to have sex with people who want to have sex with me.
I don't want to have sex with somebody who doesn't want to have sex with me. It isn't going to begin it. Isn't going to be any good. And so, uh, on a first date or a second, because I'm not trying to get this woman to bed. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to not get her into bed. I'm trying to, I want to hold off.
And see if I like her, the last thing I want to do is, is have sex with some woman and wake up in the morning with somebody I don't want to talk to anymore. Right. So I'm much more interested in getting to know somebody not for, not for months and years, you know, two days, three days, four days, five days, I'm patient.
Consent's not an issue because she's going to be coming onto me. She's going to be going, how come he's not trying to get me into bed. She's going to try to get me. That's interesting. I never even thought about it like that. But I, it makes sense.
Like, don't try so hard. Yeah. I think sometimes I, I just want to show girls that I'm interested right. And show them that I want to get to know them. And it almost always doesn't work in my benefit. So I get really confused cause I'm like, what? Well, how are you?
From talking to them, [00:40:00] that is a process of getting to know them or a star. But how do you know you want a second date on your first day? The feeling, the conversation, how it flowed? Okay. So my guess is, and this is, I'm just talking from my own experience. Okay. So I spent years like knowing things. So I recommend not knowing, I believe not knowing is a much better way to go in life than knowing.
So I recommend that you don't know on your first date, whether you want a second rec, I recommend that you don't know whether you're interested in this one. I recommend that on the first day, you just sit back, ask some questions like you're, you're getting to know her. And really think about the answers that she's giving you, because if you're leaning in and trying to get something, all the wrong answers are coming.
So, but if you lean back and you kind of, kind of be curious about who is this woman. Do I want, do I really want to spend another day with her or another date? Much less the rest of my life. Wait. And then after, when you wake up the next morning or two days or three days later after you've had a chance to think about it now, maybe, you know, whether you have a second day.
Or you want a sec
and don't let, it's hard to do this, but I recommend not letting your mind run too far into the future. So if you've had one [00:42:00] date, think about one more date. Don't think about, don't start thinking about the names of your beautiful children. Start. Think about a second date. That's it. Keep it simple. Keep it present and near future.
Don't go down the road in defenses. Hmm. That'll have you, you know, proposing over the shrimp cocktail on, on date one. Don't do it. Well, it's funny. Cause you said in your book that, that you had men come to you and say that they propose on their first day, I've had women come to me and say, can you believe this guy proposed to me on our first date?
And the answer is no woman ever says yes to that in a way. So don't do it. So one question I have for you then, as you talked about interest in intimacy and in the, in the book and conflating them, and sometimes you can read interests as intimacy. I think I'm kind of framing that correctly there, but I'm really interested in that as why do men view interest as intimacy?
Is it because they're craving and they're insecure or, or what is going on there? So just for, um, kind of clarification purposes, cause you read this and your audience members did not divide the dating and relating process into three. Separate aspects. They're not chronological that they kind of start.
They, they ramp up at different speeds, but the three aspects or facets are interest, intimacy and commitment. Interest it is desire, um, and, uh, uh, [00:44:00] wanting to be with, I, I want to get to know you. I want to spend time with you. I want to have sex with you. I want to kiss you. I want to talk to you. I want to play games with you.
I want to spend time with you, whatever that happens to me, I'm interested in being with you and, and, and kind of connecting to you. Intimacy is a long term. Experience of getting to know somebody and having that person get to know you on a, on a emotionally open and vulnerable basis. So I get it. I know what you like and what you don't like.
I know how you feel at different. I know the impact of my words. I know what you care about. I know what your values are. Um, this, all of this is intimacy. Intimacy is not sex. People use that. You know, we were intimate. In other words, we had sex, but mostly intimacy to me is about emotional honesty, openness and connection and vulnerability.
And then there's commitment and commitment is two things. One is a sense of attachment. Um, like a sense of the pine committed to my girlfriend. Right. Um, I'm there for, um, but the other is as, uh, a contract, um, I commit to living with you. I commit to being engaged with you. I commit to marrying you. I commit to whatever it is, you know, I agreed to do these right.
It's all fine. It all works. It's all, all of these things are important, but here's the pro a lot of guys, women confuse interests and intimacy so that they think they have a greater amount of [00:46:00] intimacy than they actually do, which then prompts them to make. Agreements commitments before they're actually ready to do that.
So you are interested in this woman, and this is what you were saying a few minutes ago. Oh, I'm really interested in, I lean in and I'm interested and I want, I want to get to know. Um, I would get to know this way. You're getting to know this way. It's a little different, right? Um, you're so interested that you think you do know this woman.
Mm. And you think you are get, she's getting to know you. I wouldn't say that to be true. And also you will have, now you have a feeling, a greater sense of feeling committed to each other. So it's a short step to saying, you know, wow, we should like, we're so compatible. We should like spend the rest of our lives together.
On date one or two or three. So be careful. I can be interested in you, but the intimacy takes much longer. And I want to, again, I want to lean back. I want to ask a lot of questions. I want to watch how we interact with each other. I want to see how that makes me feel and. Um, unless, and until there is a consistent, good feeling, I don't want to make any, so, so intimacy is, is, seems to be more about body language and just observation than it is about.
Like actually doing things. Cause it's like, I want you to learn that emotional connection and like, just understanding how they, they function. So it's like my brother and his wife have been together 10 years now. There's just things that he knows about her and how she'll operate. That's intimacy [00:48:00] is perfect.
Um, And then kind of the last topic I wanted to touch on with you was male camaraderie, which you referenced in your book as well, and why that's so important to masculinity and men. Cause cause you, you address it on the one side of saying that, uh, When it comes to nice guys, they're intimidated by other men, which I definitely was.
And, you know, I didn't like, I don't like hanging around asshole type guys who are really mean to their girlfriends. That's not the kind of guy I've liked, but I always used to be jealous of more attractive men too. And guys who would get women because I'm like this guy's a total piece of shit. Um, I don't understand how he does it.
And here I am on all the other side. So that really, if I look back cause struggles in my. Building of relationships with other men. And it was only till three years ago that I really addressed that and came to realize that there's just because I don't agree with a guy and how he gets a girl doesn't mean I can't be as friend or can't be, um, Scene with him and maybe I can actually have an impact on the positive side of him.
Um, and, and I've been able to create relationships with, with men better in the last three years being open and vulnerable and stuff. But I'm really curious about what, what you see in that realm of male comradery and why it's so important. Hmm. Well, um, first off you did something that I used to do. And I think is a mistake, which is when you say I don't want to be friends with those asshole guys.
Well, it turns out there are a lot more guys like you and me than you can imagine. They're not all assholes. They're not all getting women in bad ways. They're not all drinking a whole lot of beer and beating either girlfriends or, um, There's a lot of guys out there are [00:50:00] reading books and going to college and building careers and, uh, uh, building families and talking about interesting things.
And. Going to museums and writing, but like it told us there's a lot of great guys out there. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And so, but one of the things is if we have villainized our fathers, we will tend to, and we, we get along better with men. It's it's. We pride ourselves in our ability to relate to women.
And we stay away from men in part we claim they're assholes, but in point of fact, we're kind of intimidated. We think they won't think much of us. So one of the. Reasons to start hanging out with men is to discover that you can be a man among men, that they will think good things about you, not bad things about a second thing is that there's a lot of that we can learn from other men, particularly if we had bad relationships with our fathers.
And we don't have male mentors. There's a lot of guys out there who can teach us things, uh, about how to relate to women, how to relate to other men or how to relate to the work world or, uh, how to, um, how to enjoy certain aspects of ourselves that we can't with women. Um, we can. Tell dirty jokes or smell better, watch football, whatever it is.
Um, and also guys are supportive in ways that women are not, and they, they don't put the same kind of pressure on you. Not that, not that. Being with women always does, but there's, you know, just [00:52:00] hanging around with guys can be very re reaffirming, relaxing and, uh, and strengthening. And it, it doesn't, it tends not to bring out so much of the nice guy, people, pleaser kind of stuff, guys.
Everybody kind of takes care of stuff and it takes a lot of pressure off of you to perform. Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you said it was because, you know, we're intimidated by them, which I would a hundred percent say was, uh, and cause, so to give you some context, I lived in Japan for four months and for the first half, I was just kind of friends with a few people and I thought, you know, a lot of these guys on exchange wouldn't like me because I'm.
You know, I'm not the stereotypical guy. So I was, I was projecting my own insecurities onto them about why they wouldn't like me. And then way through the year or the semester, I guess we became really good friends. And that's when it all shifted to me that I'm like, you know, I'm not, I'm not this uncooled guy.
I can hang with the, with the bros, even though I might not be that stereotypical jock or, um, I don't go to the gym. So I'm not like really in shape in a lot of ways. And, but people still. Pro, like people still appreciate my personality and I got to know them. And I would say over that year, cause I was also on a community where I, I had like 15 young, younger guys and six girls, but I learned how to respond and uh, appreciate both sides of the guys, both that were like me and maybe a bit more on the softer side and guys who were on the very right.
Dominating aggressive side. And they looked up to me with respect and as a leader in the, and came to me with their problems. And I, I, I always like that's when I really noticed that I need to shake this. This meant this toxic mentality I had of the more, the submissive side and know that these guys are good men, [00:54:00] that they're capable of being good men.
And I can still get to know them there. And that's. Are you're talking about right now is that we're capable of being good men as well. And we're capable of commanding respect. Yeah. Not to the it's to the detriment of others. Does it? It doesn't have to be hierarchical. Um, like we talk about, as you know, I think we have the same kind of feeling about that, but we can be brothers.
And we can be equals and we can be, you know, a band of guys that works together. We can be a fraternity in the good sense, not, not, you know, a bunch of drunk and college louts, but a band of brothers that, that cares about each other and supports each other. Yeah, exactly. And that was really a shift. One of the first shifts I saw.
In that aspect of my life and is part of the reason I started this podcast is actually that whole experience and reflecting on it. And then coming to terms with the fact that I've been misjudging a lot of men, my entire life in a very negative way because of that nice guy victim mentality, which is why, when I saw what you had done, I'm like, this guy seems really fascinating.
I want to talk to Michael about this aspect. And then when I started to read the book, I'm like, Oh my goodness, this is, I actually. It felt very, uh, attacked by the book, but only in the sense of like, wow, this is so true. And I'm like, Oh my God, I was an idiot for so long. So yeah, that, that was, uh, that was some, some good reflection and, uh, and definitely gonna continue to read more of it than, than just the parts that you recommended.
Um, and, and try to do some more reflection on it. There. Yeah. And for anybody out there in the audience, I recommend that if you get my book, also get Robert Glover's book because his book is it's very easily. It's very easy to read [00:56:00] and it sort of describes the syndrome, my book then, and this is why I wrote it because I was working with a lot of nice guys and they all said the same thing.
Hey, we read, you know, Dr. Glover's book and boy, it really. So this is me, right. But now what do I do? And so that's what I wrote my book for is the now what do I do? It's a, it's a, it's a bunch of, it's a lot of exercises and activities that you can do to change what isn't working for. You. And get to be the kind of man that you want to be and get the results that you want without having to turn.
Into the opposite. It's about not, it's about not being passive or passive aggressive, but it's also about not being aggressive. You don't have to turn into an asshole. You have to turn into an upright, honest, um, uh, open, vulnerable, emotional caring guy who, who can like stand straight and say, this is me.
Mm, I love that. Is there any last words that you'd like to share with, uh, with my audience? Uh, it can be either words of wisdom or promotional and unaware people can find you or both. Oh, okay. Well, let me, let me do the promotional part first, which is sometime next year. I'm just kind of doing some other stuff now, but early next year, we're going to do a couple of things.
I'm going to be doing some free webinars, including one. Kind of assertiveness and setting boundaries and learning to say no. And then I'm also going to be creating ongoing some groups. I'll probably do a couple of short term groups, like [00:58:00] five week or six week groups. And then I'm going to do a year long hero's journey group in which we go through the entire book.
And, um, it's going to be hugely transformative. I hope in terms of. Words of wisdom. I want to, I use this in the book. It's actually the very last thing I say in the book. And so, but I want to say it here cause I just love it. It's a it's from Bob Dylan song. It's all right, mom. And, uh, here's what he says.
He says from the fool's gold mouthpiece, the hollow horn plays wasted words proves to ward that he not busy being born is busy, dying. So the, the ideas keep being born, keep growing, keep opening up, take risks. Um, don't, you know, don't sink into some rock that is going to be harder and harder to get out of.
Don't settle for the say, keep growing and your life will be much better for him. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, Michael, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for calling me out, giving me tips and advice. Um, I've only appreciated it. I told you I'm going to be on display for you to, I want to hear all about your, your next date.
All right. See what happens. I deleted actually all my dating apps. Uh, COVID has not been successful and it's been bad on my mental health. I'd say three weeks. I'm trying to take some time away and, uh, I think the conversation with you and some others really sparked a lot more self-reflection in that area and that I still have some work to do.
Cause I'm someone that I want to go into a relationship really clear of what I want, and I had some arts to do there and processing all that. So thank you for [01:00:00] putting me. You got it.
Thank you everyone so much for listening to this week's episode with Dr. Michael for context, this was recorded back in November. I believe of 2020 since then I've actually gone fully off dating apps. And that's my goal for 2021. So. Not applying any of this learning yet, but more just taking out some time to figure it out myself.
That being said, if you would like to find out more about Dr. Michael's work, you can visit his website, Dr. Perissa therapy, uh, dot com. I'll link it in the description below you'll. Also, if you go to the foremen's section on that site, Find a link to the workshops that he was talking about. Um, and you'll also find links to his book.
I highly recommend it. I read a few chapters before interviewing him, definitely spoke to me. I was one of the subjects that it was meant for. Um, and yeah, definitely, definitely recommend if you're interested in that. And if you've heard of Dr. Glover's work as well. Um, if you enjoyed the episode again, it would mean the world to me.
If you just took the time to press the follow button, subscribe button, leave a review. It only takes 60 seconds. And again, if you'd like to discuss today's topic with me or reach out, you can always feel free to message me on Instagram at the imperfect pod connects with me, uh, at my email, Luke, at the imperfect pod.com or the Facebook group.
Again, all those links in the description box below. And I'll see you next week where we're. Continuing on this journey of relationships, uh, with a woman and, and the, the sexual experience. So definitely excited for next week, too, as it is Valentine's day.