On this episode my guest is Author and Crossdresser, Savannah Hauk. We discuss the difference between drag and crossdressing, how gender and sexuality plays into the conversation and presentation, how people view her in public and much much more. Savannah Hauk is a lifelong dual-gender biological male who uses the art of male-to-female crossdressing to create her feminine identity and presentation. She is the author of two books including her “Living with Crossdressing” series. She is also a social media advocate, and co-host of “The Fox and the Phoenix Podcast” a resource on crossdressing.
*Giveaway*: I have 3 copies of Savannah's book Living with Crossdressing. To enter the giveaway there are a few options:
I've recently started a Facebook group for my podcast to continue the discussion and build a community of people interested in talking about masculinity and manhood. You can find out more and request to join the group on Facebook at The Imperfect Group. I would love to have you join!
[00:00:00] Luke West: Hello, imperfect listeners. It's your host, Luke West back with another episode where we discuss masculinity.
[00:00:06] Yeah, I heard it more intentionally and purposely, before we get into this episode, I wanted to remind you all that. I recently started a Facebook group called the imperfect group where we will continue to have all these conversations about masculinity, a community dedicated these topics. We have fans past guests, listeners are all part of that group.
[00:00:26] So if you want to be interested in joining. Link in the description below for, you know, direct access to some of the coolest people I've ever. I had a chance to talk to. Um, now for my guest, it is cross-dresser Savannah Hawk. You will hear her bio shortly, uh, as we get into the episode. Um, but on this episode, we discuss the difference between drag and cross dressing, how gender and sexuality plays into the conversation and how people view her in public and much, much more.
[00:00:56] Uh, also I have three copies of her book living with crush, stressing to give away, to enter the giveaway. There are a few options. One, shoot me a message on Instagram at the imperfect pod. Yeah, either saying you're interested in having the book or reading the book, uh, and we can coordinate there. To shoot me an firstname.lastname@example.org.
[00:01:19] Same thing, send a subject or email talking about how you're interested in the book or three, share a screenshot of the episode on Instagram and tag me at the imperfect pod. Again, if you enjoy the episode, it would mean the world. To me. If you took 30 seconds to press the follow button, subscribe button, or leave a review or share it with a friend.
[00:01:39] Now let's get into the show. Hey imperfect listeners today, I am joined by a very special guest Savannah Hawk. Am I pronouncing that correctly? Right. Okay. Savannah is a lifelong dual gender biological male who uses the art of male-to-female cross-dressing to create her feminine identity and presentation.
[00:02:00] [00:01:59] She is the author of two books. The living with cross-dressing series, also a CC social media advocate and cohost of the Fox in the Phoenix podcast. A resource on. Cross dressing. So Savannah, thank you very much for joining me here today.
[00:02:14] Savanna Hauk: Oh, thank you so much for letting me come on.
[00:02:17] Luke West: Yeah. And, and for those that don't know, uh, Savannah and I are on zoom and she's dressed up for me, uh, here today.
[00:02:23] So, uh, that is fantastic. But Savannah, uh, you get the same guy, same first question that all my other guests get as well, itches who is one person dead or alive that you'd like to have over for dinner. And what would you cook for them?
[00:02:36] Savanna Hauk: I definitely would have to go with Stephen King because he is my childhood author idol.
[00:02:42] Um, what would I make? Is this depending I can't make anything or is it just my, okay, so it doesn't have to be my skillset. No, I'm going to say I'm probably like flaming Yon and baked potatoes.
[00:02:55] Luke West: Okay. Do you, have you ever made Filet Mignon before or no?
[00:02:59] Savanna Hauk: I've made steak but nothing that fancy.
[00:03:01] Luke West: Okay. Okay. What's the difference between steak and Filet Mignon?
[00:03:05] Savanna Hauk: Ah, the price
[00:03:07] Luke West: just the price?
[00:03:07] Savanna Hauk: No, actually, I mean, if you cut it and Filet Mignon is done well it's, um, or done cooked well, it's like butter and melts in your mouth. It cuts so easy. It's like every other steak is just. Hamburger
[00:03:20] Luke West: I've had Kobe beef before. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. And I had it in Kobe, Japan, um, and it was the best meat I've ever had in my entire life. It was pricey, but I told myself there was two things I had to do when I was in Japan and one was, have Kobe beef and Kobe. And, uh, that is checked off my bucket list forever. So phenomenal. If he ever get this. Yes,
[00:03:43] Savanna Hauk: I do. I do it. I will definitely, I know they don't eat like feed the cows, something very specific.
[00:03:48] Luke West: Yeah. It's like named after the cow itself or something. And there's only very few of them and it's the feed. They give them. I'm not really sure about the whole system, but there's like a chef right in front of you. And [00:04:00] they say pair it with salt and pepper or sometimes garlic and I'm there right now. And I swear to God, I'm so happy. I can, I, that is such a vivid, clear memory in my life.
[00:04:12] Yeah. You know, because food has sense of sensory input besides just sight it's sight. It's a smell. It's a taste. It almost takes in every part of you. So of course it would be very bad. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:26] And now onto you and your life, so Savannah, how did you get into cross-dressing in the first place? I guess would be where I start off?
[00:04:35] Savanna Hauk: Uh, well, I'd say around the age of six. And that's six years old. I mean that's six years ago, six years old, um, found myself attracted to, you know, the clothing my mom was putting away and folding and putting away and just was drawn to it for no other reason than I just was drawn to the clothing.
[00:04:55] And I just wanted to see what it was like to wear it and touch it and kind of take it in. And from there it was something that I knew was. That's something that anybody else was doing. I mean, I knew this is something that like, you know, mom and sister would, where not necessarily I had no kind of example of what I, why I should wear it.
[00:05:16] So I knew early on that it wasn't something I would tell my parents or like let them in on it. It wasn't like we were, we're living in a, um, very liberal home. It's very conservative, very traditional Vern nuclear family. Very middle-class. Midwestern. Um, so they're in the U S so there was really nothing that my brain was like, Oh, let me share what I'm doing.
[00:05:39] And I just never did. So it continued on like that for years of just kind of periodically until the
[00:05:46] nineties, mid nineties, when I moved to New York and saw in New York city and saw all the diversity that was there. And it really was an eye opener and that's when I kind of went head to toe with it.
[00:05:58] That's where I kind of made [00:06:00] that decision and became Savannah that's when the name Savannah came into being that's when the full presentation came into being and yeah, so that's when it kind of all took that tilt to that next, that next level. Did you ever
[00:06:14] like play around with it when you were a kid when your parents weren't watching or anything like that?
[00:06:18] Oh yeah. I mean, we were latchkey kids, which means that parents worked and you were left at home after school. And at a certain point, my sister was working herself. Um, you know, so yeah, I was left alone and had opportunity to dress, but it wasn't full. I never dressed fully like makeup and hair and heels until my mid twenties.
[00:06:41] Luke West: Okay. And how did, I guess, how did the name Savannah? You alluded to it?
[00:06:46] Savanna Hauk: A Savannah was a product of not wanting something normal, being from the Midwest and living in New York city. I was trying to find something exotic that wasn't trampy. So, uh, you know, we, we settled on a bunch of names. Uh, me and my wife at the time, settle on a bunch of names and nothing really fit until one day I said, is Savannah.
[00:07:10] And don't know where it came from, but it stuck. I loved it. It was exact enough exotic that enough to kind of fit what I was feeling and just went from there.
[00:07:20] Luke West: And, um, playing off that I guess, uh, is what is, what makes cross-dressing different than drag. Cause I know that that might be a question that some people have.
[00:07:30] Savanna Hauk: Oh yeah. Um, drag is typically. Everybody knows. RuPaul, everybody knows drag race. Everybody has an idea of what drag is. The problem is that everybody knows what crossroads is. So they bucket it in the same kind of idea or label cross-dressing is something we do too. Well there's many versions. I mean, in my first book, I talk about the types of cross-dressers and you can have a myriad of reasons why you do it, whether it's just clothing, whether it's just [00:08:00] underwear, whether it's head to toe presentation, whether it's in private and public, uh, to distress, uh, to escape, to fit in, to fulfill there's dozens and dozens of reasons.
[00:08:10] Why we crossroads now that being said, drag is performance. Drag is something, you know, you get very doubt up it's it's over the top is exaggerated. It's high, uh, fashion it's performance art in much of the time. Drag is just that they do it as a performance. They don't live their lives that way. Whereas being dual gender and using cross dressing to be dual gender.
[00:08:37] I go out on the weekends, I go to Starbucks, I sit there for several hours and, you know, tap on my keyboard and do some writing or do some editing. So for me, it is part of my identity to go out and be seen and be a part of society, not just, you know, go on stage at 11 o'clock at night on a Friday, Saturday night, you know, to, for the masses to enjoy my lip sinking and dancing.
[00:09:04] Luke West: And you have the whole creative identity around Savannah. So do you have to be Savannah to create wa like creative out Savannah, if you're only Savannah on Sundays,
[00:09:14] Savanna Hauk: does that mean I'm always Savannah creatively on Sundays? No, actually that's a very good question. There is no difference in who I am as an entity, as a creative, um, D doesn't matter what I'm wearing.
[00:09:27] That, that, that, that doesn't define me. It's not like you flip a switch and I write like Savannah when I'm dressed this event. Or I write like my male self, one of my male self that is, it actually happens for some people. They, they put on the garb and they put on a dress and they kind of taken a whole new persona for me.
[00:09:45] Um, no, not really. I mean, I'm a little softer, a mill, a little more have different comportment. I walked differently. I carry myself differently. Uh, but in terms of creative, I'm creative every day and you know, all right. Savannah stuff, you know, on Tuesday, Thursday, [00:10:00] Sunday, you know? Right. So from my male side, the other days, it doesn't.
[00:10:03] That doesn't affect how we think.
[00:10:05] Luke West: Okay. And you talked about the different types of cross-dressers. What, what do you identify as in terms of fulfillment or? I kind of forget the other one as there were several.
[00:10:15] Savanna Hauk: Oh, escapism people who dress to distress. People who have it as an escapism. Um, for me, it is just, if you think about gender identity and gender identity, we have masculinity, we have femininity.
[00:10:29] And the problem is people just kind of put those as two temples. No, like you're one or the other, or if you're feminine and you have more masculine traits. Well, that's okay because you're buying into this elevated form because masculinity is so much more sought after that femininity. Um, but for me, if you think about identity, I have a dual gender.
[00:10:50] I am biologically male. I live five, six days of my life in male mode. Go into work, do my thing. We live in light. Bring home paycheck. Um, you know, doing stuff with my girlfriend and then Sundays or whatever, like tonight, for instance, or a Sunday, I become Savannah. And I just, it just makes me feel complete in that other role that I need some periodic expression with.
[00:11:16] Luke West: And another question I have about being in that role is obviously, you know, people that know you both as Savannah and not Savannah. So is there an expectation of those people to call you Savannah in while you're Savannah and refer to you as she pronouns? Or does that really not bother you if they only call you by, I guess your, your male assigned name?
[00:11:40] Savanna Hauk: Um, uh, ironically. I'll answer a bunch of those questions. The first is if you said he versus shade, depending on where I'm wearing. Um, yeah, I would be just a little annoyed cause like, look, you're looking at Savannah and you're still using he pronouns. I mean, I pretty much, I would like people to [00:12:00] address me with a pronoun as I'm appearing right.
[00:12:02] As I'm presenting. Um, one time I went to a coffee shop and that they know Ms. Bolt. And they call me by my male name, even though I had come in, in full Savannah mode. And yeah, we always come on those things where it's like, well, you know, they're busy and they know me as both names. So it was just, mechanics is like, you know, I, I see you as your male side all the time.
[00:12:24] So, you know, even though they see the presentation, they're still thinking the other name. So I don't, I don't take it too hard. Um, but there are some people, and this is more of the transitioning community. This is more the people who don't feel comfortable in their maleness or in their male body biology.
[00:12:40] Those are the people where if they are transitioning and you call them by the wrong pronoun or they're dead pronouns or biological pronouns that they're capable away from, those are the people who take it harder. Those are the people you see scream and go viral online, you know, having a blow up at game.
[00:12:56] Stop. Because they had been told he served him so many times. It's just, it's just a stab in the gut every time they're reminded of that person, they're trying to get away from being
[00:13:09] Luke West: okay. So you wouldn't relate the same kind of experience, although you still find it annoying and you'd want them to refer to you.
[00:13:17] Yeah, of course.
[00:13:19] Savanna Hauk: I think it's just validating. It's just something to like it validates. How you're presenting. And if somebody kind of comes in and says, excuse me, sir, and you're looking, you know, long hair and address, I think for anybody, it would be, you know, whether you're CIS gender or dual gender or transgender, I think people would, you know, say, wow, really?
[00:13:38] You thought I was a guy as I just, cause I didn't put on makeup today, you know? And I'm a real woman, I'm a biological woman and you're, you're talking to me like that. I mean, I think we're everybody's feelings, but it's not that gut wrench that it could be for some.
[00:13:52] Luke West: Have you ever kind of had a really bad experience while you've been Savannah with people.
[00:13:58] I know that you now live in the [00:14:00] South and I'm really just curious about that.
[00:14:02] Savanna Hauk: Uh, yeah. Well, I moved from the Midwest, which is fairly conservative, went to New York city, which is liberal and awesome. And that had to move to South Carolina, the upstate of South Carolina, which is, there's like a triangle of counties.
[00:14:16] That is more liberal than arrest, but it's Baptist is very religious, very conservative, very Republican, um, pickup trucks and, you know, gun racks. So I was scared out of my life just to go out. Um, the first time after we moved here, you know, trying to find a place to go. Um, and it was a, it took about six months for me to even get the courage back up.
[00:14:40] I mean, we're talking about me going out like every week in New York. You know, going to events, going to parties. And then coming down to here to South Carolina was. I was so fearful of what could happen. So I ended up, you know, kind of like looking and looking and looking for like a safe Haven to kind of connect myself to so I could get from the apartment to the car, from the car to the event and be safe.
[00:15:04] And, um, I realized like with exposure and with repeated times going out, I felt more and more comfortable realizing that people are people in general don't care. If you keep yourself safe and you stay in a safe environment in you're very self-aware and you carry yourself in a very appropriate manner for the venue.
[00:15:25] Most people don't even notice you. And if they do, they're like, they'll give you a double glance and then just move on to their business because they have their whole lives. So no, to answer your question, I've never had a violent experience. I've never had altercations. I have been very lucky in that regard.
[00:15:42] Luke West: Okay. And you've also mentioned to the fact that you had a wife and now you have a girlfriend. So explain, explain that you're not yours. You're cisgendered, you're straight. And you do this.
[00:15:54] Savanna Hauk: Yes. Uh, what people tend to misinterpret is they [00:16:00] see you in a dress. Therefore they're assuming you must want to be female.
[00:16:04] Therefore you must want to take on all the traits of a female. Therefore you must like men. Hmm. That's a lot to connect to. There's a lot of dots to connect, but yet that is instant in most people's minds when they say, Oh, you're a man, but you're dressed as a woman. Oh, you must be gay. No, that's not the Mo there is no more proclivity from the general populace of like, you know, 10,000 men in that demographic, if 4% are gay, you could take this sum.
[00:16:36] The same number of cross-dressing men you'd have the same percentage of people who were gay. So there's no huge differential just because I want to wear a dress doesn't automatically make me sexually reassigning. And the problem is people tend to say, Oh, gender equals sexual attraction. And those are hugely independent qualities that most people don't, you know, they, they assume that like male, you know, men like women and women like men, therefore, and they kind of just assign that so quickly to who they see.
[00:17:10] And they've tried to put you in that box and they just make that assumption.
[00:17:15] Luke West: Yeah. I think that's, that's really true. Um, even in, you know, if we think about a lot of our lives it's Oh, if you're a man, you must like women, or if you're gay or you act in any feminizing way, you're gay. And we always align performance with sexuality, I guess, which just typically isn't the case because there's no like.
[00:17:41] Like sexuality is, is just so much different than gender there's no, like you're hardcore straight and hardcore like gay, I guess. Well, I guess you might be, but you know, being hard for masculine doesn't make you hardcore straight. They don't connect in that way. Um, Okay. I'm [00:18:00] curious then is how have, how, how did your ex-wife and how do your current girlfriend, how did they respond to this identity that you have?
[00:18:09] Um, and tell me a little bit more about those
[00:18:11] Savanna Hauk: experiences. Uh, when I was married, I was still, again, we talked about the mid nineties coming out. So when I got married, this was still kind of a hidden thing. I didn't share much with her. Um, when we got married, it started to be, you know, I started to be a little more open about it, where I was not really understanding where I was and where I was going, because I didn't have the resources to understand more so than, you know, bad parodies on TV.
[00:18:38] Um, you know, people do this, it must be for Finnish. Um, it's like the things you see in them back in magazines, you know, that are like behind the counter. Uh, I had no real good role model. Or even understanding or community to really know what I was told. And so when her and I moved to New York, um, we both experienced a huge eye opening in terms of what was out there, you know, going to lucky Chang's in New York city, downtown, where everybody's a drag queen and like seeing that, and I was like, it's so open and kind of, you know, the performance and everybody was loving it.
[00:19:13] And all of a sudden is such a completely different world. Um, so long story short. I made more of a discovery in my journey about being dual gender Necro and using cross dressing. And she discovered her Lesbianisms. So here we are both repressed and coming to basically both coming out at the same time.
[00:19:34] So as she was finding herself, she was very supportive about me finding myself. That's when the name came, that's when the identity came. That's when, you know, the look came, uh, at that time. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, once we, we did end up divorcing obviously. Um, but we, we did so in a way that she was able to live her best life.
[00:19:56] And find her find her journey. And I was able to do the same now [00:20:00] with now, with my current girlfriend, again, several girlfriends between then and now between the mid nineties and the two thousands. So, um, I made a point for every girlfriend to make sure they knew like day one, that Savannah existed. This is what it was.
[00:20:16] And they all, you know, I was in relationships with them. And they, you know, were part of that development for better, for worse. You know, I come out of the closet and be more vocal and more visible and then retreat back because just the validation and the support was there or not there. Um, so with the current, my current girlfriend, Same thing.
[00:20:37] She knew from day one and for her, it was something she had no experience with no exposure to. Um, but at this point I was fairly well established and very self-aware very understanding of where I was in my journey and where I was heading. And it was just a matter of more education, which is where the books came from.
[00:20:56] Luke West: Yeah. No, and I think that's really beautiful. Um, do you ever like. Where their clothes, or do you have your own set?
[00:21:05] Savanna Hauk: I have my own stuff. Um, I've never actually been with a girlfriend that I could completely steal stuff from her closet. Um, sometimes you can share dresses sometimes you can. Share sometime that you can share shoes.
[00:21:20] Uh, but I've never had that whole, like, I can still eat the room cause it, and it fits. Um, no, I have my own stuff. My own closet. I have a closet full of male clothes and a second closet full of female clothes. Okay.
[00:21:32] Luke West: So do they ever get mad at how well you pull off women? Female clothing, women's clothing.
[00:21:38] Savanna Hauk: I think.
[00:21:42] Luke West: I think in a playful
[00:21:43] Savanna Hauk: way. Well, I tell you what I think, because I tend to know what I'm doing in my feminine expression. It is very binary. And by that, I mean, I am going for a very specific ideal of femininity, you know, very [00:22:00] specific look, I want to look a certain way and not necessarily like this guy beat this exact makeup, I want to be as passable as possible.
[00:22:06] So I've spent years. Continuing to pursue perfect. My craft, what happens is because I take an hour to get ready an hour and a half to get ready. And my girlfriend's like done in 15 minutes. It's kind of like the reversal where it's like the guy sitting on the couch going, Hey, are you ready yet? I've been waiting for an hour.
[00:22:27] Now she's waiting for me for an hour. So that's where it gets playful. It's like, really? Are you done yet? It's like, I've been done for an hour. Yeah. So, so in that way, it's like, wow, you take so much time. And sometimes it can get competitive. Sometimes it's like, Oh, I guess I should have dressed up more her saying that to me.
[00:22:45] Um, but I think even then she realized it's like, listen, I'm not looking for you to match me. I do this because this is what I feel I need to do and what I want to do, but you need to live. What makes you feel the most feminine? What makes you feel the most comfortable? It's like, it's not for you to like, be like, Oh, if you got this much makeup on, then she has to put the same amount.
[00:23:07] No, it's all about just whatever makes you the happiest and most content.
[00:23:11] Luke West: And do you go out together, like when you're Savannah and whatnot, like, do you go for romantic dinners and dates and stuff?
[00:23:18] Savanna Hauk: Uh, well, COVID really put a damper. Uh, going anywhere, but yeah, so we have gone out with friends. We've gone out, uh, just to go to, like, we went to Mexican.
[00:23:29] Um, we went to the park a few times, even during COVID like it's early stages. Um, we've done a few things. We've we've uh, had weekend trips. We've gone to trans conferences where I was Savannah all weekend and we're, you know, going to the courses and the breakout groups and the dinners and the lunches and yeah.
[00:23:47] And we'd spend the entire time. That way go to the pool. What to the indoor pool, you know, both in bathing suits, Savannah and in her. So, um, you know, we don't do it as often is we could, but again, this is [00:24:00] again, once things kind of settled back into a normalcy, uh, we'll probably see more of it.
[00:24:05] Luke West: Okay. I have a question following up on the aisle.
[00:24:07] You said you went to a trans conference. Do, are there, like, how has that relationship between cross-dressers and trans people? Because trans people are more like, my identity needs to change. I'm born in the wrong body. You're kind of doing it more from a performative standpoint. Is there any friction in those two, um, worlds I'm really curious about?
[00:24:27] Savanna Hauk: Yes. Yes. There can be. There is. Um, there are some outspoken people who would like to say that you're only a dresser. Like they would look at me and say, Oh, you only do a part-time and you're okay with their biology. Oh, you're only a cross-dresser. Versus them being transgender. Now the problem with the word transgender, and again, I'm not, I am not going to ever judge.
[00:24:55] What, how people label themselves. The problem is people like to label other people. Um, the problem with the word transgender, it is both a specific term and a general term. Meaning, if you are to spirit like a native American, if you are trans, uh, transitioning man to woman, if you're trans masculine or trans feminine, if you're a cross-dresser, if you are a drag queen, you all of us live under a transgender umbrella.
[00:25:23] What happens though is the trans the transitioning folk also have coined the term transgender for themselves. So there's friction in terms of the usage of the word, the understanding of the word, how they apply it to themselves versus somebody else, how they react when I might use it for myself in their presence.
[00:25:46] So there is a, there can be a lot of friction, if you are kind of saying, no, you are not transgender because you don't fit the criteria that I fall under as a transgender woman. [00:26:00] So that's when you can get some, you know, that's one education's important. That's when understanding is, is important. That's one thing is important, not to label other people or define the labels for them.
[00:26:11] You know, I would never label you and you should never label me as for us to decide. However, we understand it. Now, people can come to us and say, well, you do know that transgender means this, right? And then you do research and you do discovery, which is why I use dual gender or by gender. Um, more readily than I would transgender because I, I do understand that there is, there is a very tactical reason why people use it.
[00:26:37] Luke West: Got you. And one of the things I just noticed is that I'm not sure if this is part of your, and I'm very glad that you dressed up as Savannah, right? Cause I, I noticed this and you said I would be noticing this too. And when you pitched the whole idea of doing it that way, uh, cause on our initial call, you were, uh, the male version of yourself, obviously.
[00:26:57] But you, the way you caress your hair is, is much more feminine than it would be. If, if you were, I feel like in your male identity. So when it comes to your gender performance now, do you notice anything that's different than your male performance? Like, do you walk a different way? Do you obviously you're using the same voice?
[00:27:16] I know I asked that on an initial call too. Right. Um, but what are those things that you notice that are different about the way you, I guess, perform yourself?
[00:27:24] Savanna Hauk: Well, I, again, I will stay away from the word performance because it's Roy a presentation as an identity. Um, because again, performative means that you're doing it as an art.
[00:27:35] What is an art form? But for me, it's fulfilling that feminine energy or spirit that, that I need to express in some way. That's and again, nobody knows why we cross for us. Nobody knows why we feel this need to have an expression, but not actually transitioned out of our male biology. I mean, there there's still a lot there.
[00:27:55] That's not understood, but the way I see it is. Cross-dressing is what I do [00:28:00] now, who I am. By gender is who I am. And I'm just using cross-dressing now to answer your question about what's different about me, I use my hands more. Um, I tend to close my body and more like keep the shoulders in, keep the arms in.
[00:28:15] Um, the walk is a little more flowy. Uh, what I'm going from place to place that could be because of the heels or it could be because I just try to put a little more effort to put. Yeah, the foot in front of the foot, you have to try to get that motion. That's a little more feminine. Um, I hold myself a little higher.
[00:28:33] Um, No. When I sit, whether I'm in leggings or address, like, you know, my legs aren't together. They're, they're very specific. You know, if you think about the 1930s through the sixties, a lot of comportment women were taught compartment and it's really a lot of that, that I adopted too, to help in my presentation.
[00:28:54] Luke West: Did you teach yourself that or did it just come naturally? Like, did you have to practice? Oh, there's a lot of
[00:29:00] Savanna Hauk: practice of walking in heels is not something that came natural. Um, I don't know how anybody walk in heels period. Um, but luckily I think it's the, the male calves helped me with strength and the ankles.
[00:29:12] I think it helps a wearing heels, but no, it's something you pick up. I do a lot of people watching. So I've always been like kind of a student of how people move and, and how they look and how they conduct themselves. And you kind of just pick up on all that and you kind of practice it and mimic it until it becomes like more muscle memory.
[00:29:30] And then you'll just be that like you'd put on the dress and all of a sudden you're, you're that, you know, I, I tend to get in this mode. I tend to touch more like as a man. And this goes back to masculinity versus femininity as a man. You wouldn't typically be so touchy, feely with another man or another woman, um, unless you're like involved with that woman, but as Savannah, I'm more, I feel more freely.
[00:29:55] I feel more free to express by. Tactical touch and [00:30:00] in, you know, putting the hand on somebody's arm or on their wrist to have that connection. And that's more of a feminine trait to feel that it's okay to have that connection in a different way than a man would with either other, another man or a woman.
[00:30:14] Luke West: That's interesting. Cause I I'm very touchy when with like both. Men and women in my life. Like, I like to put my hands on them and like, I hold their elbow. If they're beside me or something, if I'm reaching out to them, like, I feel that I am very touchy, feely, which has become a problem with that. I begin to.
[00:30:32] Self, I guess, reflect on a bit more as we get into a lot of the harassment world and, you know, respecting space and whatnot, which has been really hard for me. Cause I'm like, I can be very touchy and I know it's never like in a harassing way, but it can come across that way. Right. And, and, but that's part of my feminine, or I guess myself that I see more feminine and I talk a lot with my hands as well.
[00:30:56] And I always really find it interesting that those are associated with feminization when. And, and like how that word becomes more caring and how caring is feminized. Right. And like the, the, the steps to get there to the word caring is, Oh, you have to be feminine to care a little bit more or care enough to touch or care enough to create that physical
[00:31:18] Savanna Hauk: intimacy.
[00:31:18] Yeah. I mean, you're saying. All the right things. Obviously, this podcast is exactly for this. You know, if you think about masculinity and you think about stoicism and how people, you know, you have to be bottled up and not show emotions and not cry, walk it off. You got hit with a baseball, you know, all these things.
[00:31:37] I is very masculine and we've been ingrained and indoctrinated to believe. Both by our parents, by the media, by tradition, by culture, that men should act a certain way and women should act a certain way. And so if you're trying to reach that divide between, Oh, if you are a caring person in your little softer, that means [00:32:00] your feminine.
[00:32:01] I think the problem is, is that we spend so much time saying, Oh, you're, you're so much more feminine because you're caring and compassionate and empathetic. Uh, no men and women are both, all those things. The problem is, is that men have not been allowed until, uh, probably what the nineties with metro-sexual sexuality.
[00:32:22] And, um, you know, even the, the coin of the phrase, toxic masculinity, you know, and all these like retreats of like, you're gonna burn yourself of all this animal angsty and stuff, and being on tribal drums and, you know, center yourself. We've never allowed ourselves to be that society where it was accepted and okay.
[00:32:46] And not a detriment to be open in your emotions, opening your empathy, cry when you need to, without feeling demasculated. I mean, I'll tell you, this is like, if you were asking my girl foreigner, you were asking anybody at work who doesn't know thumb Savannah on the weekends. I don't think any of them would ever lay claim as like, Oh, I knew it because you were so femme you're so you're so, you know, Fu no, I mean, I'm masculine as I need to be, but I'm just softer and empathetic and nobody's questioning my masculinity and, uh, and I think nobody questions my femininity when I'm Savannah.
[00:33:28] But yet they know I'm a man, I don't affect a different voice. I don't try to hide who I am other than the presentation of what I'm trying to commit to. And it's like, I I'm fine with my femininity and I'm fine with my masculinity. I've I feel that there's a blend. I feel that my Savannah side serves. My masculinity in a way that it helps me to be more compassionate, helps me to be more understanding, less judgmental, uh, less angry, uh, less aggressive.
[00:33:59] I [00:34:00] mean, all these things that have, I think have been balanced in me since I was a child has just taken me to the age. I'm not going to tell you, uh, to actually reflect about it enough to be okay. Kind of like, Oh, I understand where I am and I kind of
[00:34:14] Luke West: assessed it yet. So where are you kind of alluding?
[00:34:18] Well, that's interesting the way you worded it. So would you say that you're slower to anger as Savannah than in your male identity? Or like, like, do you think it's more valid for you to be caring and empathetic when you're Savannah than it is when you are the male identity?
[00:34:37] Savanna Hauk: No, I, I think I am equal parts.
[00:34:39] If, if I were to take this dress off and rip this wig off and wipe off the makeup, you'd have the same person.
[00:34:46] Luke West: Okay, because I think that would be interesting too, is like, Oh, I, I feel more valid in my, in the softer parts of the manhood that I am when I'm a man. And now I can perform that better because. I am Savannah.
[00:35:02] So like these traits that I typically have that as a man that are ostracized or whatnot, I feel safer performing or
[00:35:09] Savanna Hauk: present. That's that's a good point. I mean, I think I've been doing this for so long. This is not something I came on like five years ago, and now I'm struggling to, to, to put the, the voice to the body and to the presentation I've been doing this as, as, as a child.
[00:35:24] So it's always been ingrained in as I grow up. It just was, yeah. Fostered in grew and try to understand it more. And I spent years not understanding what I came out in the nineties. The first thing I did was that we started going to the clubs and we started seeing dry Queens in New York at an a club scene and started to see, you know, other cross-dressers.
[00:35:44] And I was, wow. These were, these women quote, unquote are super attractive. And all of a sudden I was wondering about my sexuality because I knew they were men underneath and it took me years to. Kind of unlearn the idea that we talked about earlier, which [00:36:00] is, Oh, well, if you see them as a woman, but they're really a man that means you're gay.
[00:36:05] No, I was attracted to the feminine presentation, not to the underlying biology. And I think a lot of people have that problem too. Is that yeah. I was like, well, I would never date a trans woman because I know they're a man. Well, it's like, but are you attracted to them? Do you like the personality? Why is it the genitals that define your attraction?
[00:36:28] So we, as a people
[00:36:30] Luke West: have lots of hangups. I think we had this conversation, uh, on our initial call, but. In that world. Is it common for men who do cross-dress to overplay their masculinity when they're not cross dressing to make people assume that they would never cross dress? Like, is there kind of a protection of that, that realm or a, uh, making up of sorts that, uh, That they don't want to come across that way.
[00:36:58] Like, I don't know that really the question I'm asking, but
[00:37:02] Savanna Hauk: I think I'm hearing you, um, there's a lot of ways we could dissect it. Um, number one, we had talked about this on the prior call is when we, when somebody like me is still in denial is still trying to fight the demons that are their femininity.
[00:37:19] They tend to, uh, go to the opposite extreme. They tend to over masculine. Because they are so desperate to beat back this feminine demon, that's plaguing them. So they'll, uh, you know, they'll go into a high risk, high masculinity job. They will be firefighters or cops or go into the armed services, be a green Baret, you know, or they'll like work out seven days a week for five hours a day and get super.
[00:37:46] Pumped up and be as masculine as possible in all those ways and make them feel more masculine. Um, but I've seen the same people come out of the service and transition, like completely. [00:38:00] Because, you know, they served their country and they didn't care if they die. They were like gung ho. And they're like, I'm doing this for God and country just to come home and realize, Oh, I was doing all these things because I was fighting who I was not fighting the enemy.
[00:38:15] I was fighting myself. Um, so that's one thing that can happen is that when we're in a denial of self, we tend to try to exaggerate the expressions we think are going to make us happy versus. Assessing those needs that we have that will make us happy in general, but because they're not socially acceptable or they're not socially correct.
[00:38:40] People don't want to do it. Or if your faith doesn't say it's okay, or your culture, doesn't say it's okay. Or you could be killed if you're gay or, you know, across stressing gender fluid. Uh, there are so many things that cause people to abandon their truth. For in favor of what will keep them safe. I don't think there's anybody in the world on this planet.
[00:39:03] Who's like, Hey, you know what I'd like to do? Let me do something. That's going to put me in harms way. And it takes a lot. Ironically, if you want to say it this way, it takes a lot of balls to say, you know what? I'm going to trust as a woman. And I'm going to be my Savannah self and I'm going to go on public.
[00:39:22] And I don't care what people think and I don't care what. How, what people, how they stare and what they may say to me, for me, it's living my truth and it makes me happy. So, um, that's, that's, unfortunately, that's only one part of the puzzle that you asked me. Um, but do I, or do other like active cross-dressers tend to Butch it up in our male self to, to kind of throw everybody off our scent.
[00:39:48] I think it, the more comfortable you are with yourself, the less you're going to do that. Okay. Because there's because you aren't comfortable. It's like if somebody finds, if somebody finds out that I'm Savannah, if [00:40:00] I come home in a neighbors out front raking leaves and I'm drive up and I'm like, who is that girl?
[00:40:05] That's not your girlfriend, who is his person? Who's driving his car, but it's a her, and it kind of looks like him. Yeah. And all of a sudden you're like, well, I guess it's going down. I guess I'm going to go over to the neighbor and say, hi, I'm your neighbor, Savannah. So the more comfortable you get in yourself, In your masculinity, in your femininity, in whatever that blend is, it doesn't have to be like me, who was like, I'm going to the feminine degree, anytime I'm Savannah.
[00:40:31] And as my male self, I just, I'm just my male self and just live under that guise. It doesn't mean it's not true. It just means that this is what makes me comfortable in this moment.
[00:40:44] Luke West: I love that. And I guess what would one of the biggest things that you've taken away from yourself about masculinity and manhood, both as Savannah and as your man?
[00:40:55] Savanna Hauk: you alluded to it earlier, which is, you know, this blending, this, like did Savannah make me a better man? Yeah, did did allowing myself to feel the femininity, allow me to be a more compassionate and caring and balanced person in whole. And I would say that is what I have taken away. I've taken away my truth, uh, understanding that it's okay to have feminine side and not abandon your masculinity.
[00:41:23] Um, I realize that it's my place, a reason why I did the podcast. I started the podcast, um, and wrote the books is because cross-dressing is still such a nebulous, unknown that everybody says, Oh, you're transitioning. Oh, you're a drag queen. Oh, you're gay. You're this. Unfortunately, they don't understand what it really means because there's no science that we've discovered that says, Oh, because your brain is got this many wrinkles in it.
[00:41:52] That's why you're. You like to dress in women's clothing. It's, it's, it's, it's such a mental game is it's anything [00:42:00] else. So I've taken away from my experiences in all my years and being more visible and more vocal and advocating more in educating myself more that I've taken away, my better sense of self and being okay with all sides of myself and just knowing that I need to let.
[00:42:20] People? No, that's okay. I mean, that's what the books are there for. That's what the podcast is there for. That's what my writing essays on my website are for is to let the cross-dressing mail know that it's okay and you're not alone as well as their partners and their spouses that say, this is not a fetish.
[00:42:37] This you're not going to lose your husband because they like to dress up this way. I'm not saying that's an absolute, I mean, I'm sure some people are in such denial, they will transition, or they will need something different out of life. But if everybody comes into it with a full understanding and just live it and just kind of reflect and don't let the weight of the world and wait a culture and a weight of religion getting away of your truth, I think we would all be better people.
[00:43:08] I would
[00:43:09] Luke West: love to leave it there, but there's a couple more questions. Cause that was really deep. That was really deep. I was like, Oh, that's such a, uh, that's so good. Uh, that'd be a great ending point, but there are a couple of more questions came up, obviously. Um, what do you consider yourself more vote? Uh, as one of the more vocal cross-dressers in the community, uh, in terms of supporting and being educational on it.
[00:43:32] Savanna Hauk: Hmm. Without sounding. You know, self-serving um, like my girlfriend and I were just talking about today, were talking about her and I, and how, where she started and in what I told her to read certain books prior to mine is that she still had all those same questions that you had even after reading, because all those books reinforced that stereotype of what a cross-dresser was.
[00:43:57] So I think that [00:44:00] my role in writing the book. Was to give a voice in a resonance to people that they could find a little bit of themselves in the writing, because it's autobiographical. I tried to make it personal and personable, and I think people do find something in there that equates to them and they can say, Oh my God, you wrote this for me.
[00:44:22] Or I understand this exact thing that you said. And I think that gives people hope and I think it gives them an outlet and understanding and they can point to it. They can actually go to their partner and say, look at this on page 17. Savannah said this, and that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's what I'm trying to say to you.
[00:44:40] Let's, let's talk about it. Let's have a conversation about it. I think all I can do for people is to arm the arm, them with some tools and with some ideas and with some perspective, And see how it applies to them and allow them to have that going into a conversation need to have for themselves or with the people they love.
[00:45:00] Luke West: And to follow that up, do you think, or are there as many cross-dressers that are women that dresses men or is that like not as prevalent? Well,
[00:45:12] Savanna Hauk: here here's um, Oh boy, we're going into history now. Uh, women have been fighting for equal rights to not wear dresses and to wear what they want since the twenties.
[00:45:22] Right. Um, you know, I think it was, it was a Katherine Hepburn that she was, you know, wearing pants and it was all scandal. Um, Yeah. And then the women, you know, got into the factories, you know, during world war two and Rosie the Riveter. And they became part of a culture that wasn't the housewife with the pearls and the aprons and, you know, the sensible shoes and, you know, barefoot and pregnant.
[00:45:51] So all that being said, there's always been a feminine men. There's always been tomboy girls. But what has happened is that clothing has [00:46:00] adjusted. Women are wearing jeans. Women are wearing t-shirts. The women are wearing more masculine fashion and it's become such the culture troll norm that you could dress up like a man, if you're a woman and nobody says anything.
[00:46:15] Right. It's almost, it's almost like a non-issue of quote unquote cross-dressing female to male until you add in one or the other attributes, like. Um, you're very butchy. Uh, you know, you're very masculine in your presentation and how you connect with people. Um, you're gay and all of a sudden, now that takes on a different aura to it, but it just a typical CIS female straight heteronormative who's wearing, you know, whatever very male-ish outfits they want.
[00:46:45] Nobody says anything about it because it's become part of fashion.
[00:46:49] Luke West: Right. Yeah, that's true. And as soon as I said it and you started talking, I'm like, Oh, I know exactly where you're going with. This is that I can name almost all of my female women, friends who buy men's clothing because it just fits better or looks better and they've always worn it.
[00:47:05] So I think it's
[00:47:06] Savanna Hauk: cheaper. Yeah.
[00:47:08] Luke West: Probably men's stuff is usually cheaper except for their dresses. A man's suit is way more expensive than a woman's dress. For the most part. Like it takes, I would say it takes a more money for a guy to look fancy than it does for a woman, I guess depends on their tastes, but like, A lot of women could have gone to forever 21 rest in peace, uh, and, and bought like a $12 dress and men can't go and buy it as $12 shirt tie and suit pants
[00:47:36] Savanna Hauk: and dress shoes and belt and cufflinks.
[00:47:41] Luke West: But guys also don't care about wearing the same suit. A hundred thousand times, and there's a lot more societal pressure on women to change up their look every day. That's true. Very true. Do you do that, like, do you wear a different dress all the time? Yes.
[00:47:55] Savanna Hauk: Yes. Um, because I, uh, do a lot more Instagram, uh, just one note [00:48:00] about the Instagram.
[00:48:00] I'm very, self-conscious about my looks. And I never felt comfortable in my feminine looks, but the more I actually, um, engage with taking selfies and taking pictures and figuring out which one to put on Instagram, I've actually gotten more comfortable with my looks because it forced me to be objective.
[00:48:19] One about like, okay, what's my best angles. What's the best sliding, uh, all those things that like make you take a better picture of yourself. I've kind of learned that craft and has made me happier about the results. So that's number one. But number two, the question being answered is if I like wear the same dress.
[00:48:38] Like within like two scrolls of what I'm posting, I've worn it too close together.
[00:48:46] Luke West: Savannah you're fit in the dorm there. The stereotype disappointed. Sorry.
[00:48:52] Savanna Hauk: I'm so sorry. But I'm very, I'm very binary in my, in how I feel about my femininity, which is, which is ironic because the term non binary is what I am non binary means that you are doing something.
[00:49:06] Outside of your biology, you know, you're identifying outside your biology. Uh, but yet I dress both male and female in a very binary way, like other than the boys and you probably can speak to it better than me. Cause you're looking at me. I try, I want to be very specific and very feminine. It looked apart.
[00:49:24] And when you saw me in my male self, it's like, Hey, what's up, you know, scruffy hat on whatever, you know, it just trying to, I think he had an earring too.
[00:49:34] Luke West: I did not. Did you, I thought you did. No. Okay. Do you have earrings? Do you have earrings? Like clip-on earrings
[00:49:43] Savanna Hauk: I've seen back in the day and I just think I got so weird.
[00:49:48] Luke West: Okay. I tried fake earrings once. But like, just like studs and then, cause I was trying to like, do I want earrings or do I not want earrings? And then I decided not to, but I still think I [00:50:00] look okay with them, but I just don't put the work in every day to make my hair look good. So that was a huge problem to iron I here.
[00:50:08] But the first thing I want to do once I pay off all my student debt, which is as soon is a to get a tattoo. So I think that will be my gift to myself once I'm. Once I'm out of debt and you have it all
[00:50:21] Savanna Hauk: figured out. Obviously if you have to save up for it after student debt, it must be an expansive tattoo.
[00:50:27] Luke West: It's uh, around 1200 to $1,400. Probably it'd be, uh, my forearm right here. And, um, it'd be a picture of Mount Fuji in Japan. I lived in Japan for four months. Um, and so it's the only thing that's ever spoken to me as being a tattoo that I'd want permanently on my body. And. It would all like all the tattoos I want I'd want to do a full sleeve in the future would have to be really meaningful things.
[00:50:55] Right. Either have landscapes or, um, like siblings, kids,
[00:51:01] Savanna Hauk: or parents, right. Things that are kind of like, not, are not changeable. Correct.
[00:51:07] Luke West: Yeah, you're always my kid. You're always my sibling. You're always my parents or wife. Probably not because we can, we can, we can change those. So
[00:51:16] Savanna Hauk: probably not though, uh, those TLC shows where they cover up a bad tattoo.
[00:51:20] Um, and you have so many options with like the Japanese style of tattoo art and, you know, it's so beautiful to see that on,
[00:51:28] Luke West: on, on skin. I would only do realism. I can't do co like I wouldn't, I do black and white realism. I can't do color. It doesn't look good on, on white skin. I don't think. Or most skin, not even just white skin, to be honest, I don't like color in a lot.
[00:51:41] And then I only like realism as a design, which apparently hurts. Cause there's lots of,
[00:51:46] Savanna Hauk: a lot of shade lost in the lane. Yeah. There's a lot going on there. Uh, my body is a tattoo free, so.
[00:51:53] Luke West: Is it like you're gonna keep a tattoo?
[00:51:55] Savanna Hauk: I don't know. I was asked if somebody said, if you were to get a tattoo, what would it be?
[00:51:58] And, um, [00:52:00] because I identify even got my, uh, my Phoenix, uh, necklace on today and Fox and Phoenix would be in the podcast. That's kinda my spirit animal. And as like, if I were to do anything, because I had to be, like you said, meaningful and have to be something that I want adorned in, be proud of. And that's the only thing I could think of that would be.
[00:52:19] Would make me proud and happy is to have a very stylized Phoenix on some place. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:52:27] Luke West: yeah. That's cool. And, uh, and with that, we'll. Let let's promote yourself. Savannah, you have a minute, a minute and a half to tell everyone what you got going on in your life books podcast, where they can find you.
[00:52:41] Savanna Hauk: uh, you can find me at living with cross-dressing dot com. I'm also on Facebook at Savannah Hawk and as Hawk with a U. By the way U K uh, Savannah is two ends. And then H also with, uh, uh, Facebook with living with cross-dressing, uh, me and my cohost share the, uh, Facebook, the Fox in the Phoenix podcast, which also you can find on Spotify and I heart radio and, uh, Apple podcasts and my books.
[00:53:09] Uh, the living with cross-dressing series are two books. The first one is about relationships. And kind of like a one-on-one of cross-dressing and like how to navigate it within a relationship. And the second book is really more serving the cross-dresser or dual gender individual, themselves to kind of like deeper dive into like the why's of why you do it.
[00:53:29] And just kind of a, more of a two Oh one, like, just give you like the, the tools to make that self-assessment.
[00:53:36] Luke West: Perfect. And can we plan a giveaway of one of those books or two of those books for the audience?
[00:53:42] Savanna Hauk: Absolutely. Perfect. Let's do it up
[00:53:45] Luke West: per ah, yes, that's what I meant to say. Two, two signed books so we can coordinate that off camera, but everyone check out the details for those books in the description.
[00:53:55] Check out the links to everything Savannah in the description of this episode as well. And [00:54:00] Savannah, thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:54:01] Savanna Hauk: Thank you so much for having this podcast. It really is amazing. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you.
[00:54:10] Luke West: Thank you everyone so much for listening to this week's episode of the imperfect pod. If you would like to find out more about today's guest, you can connect with her on her website, living with cross-dressing dot com. Again, you can find her on Facebook as Savannah Hawk, or a little bit with dressing her podcast, Fox and the Phoenix and her books.
[00:54:30] Uh, the living with cross-dressing series. Again, I have three copies of these books to enter the giveaway. There are a few options. One, shoot me a message on Instagram at the imperfect pod, stating your interest to shoot me an email at Luke at the imperfect pod stating your interest. Or three, share a screenshot of the episode on Instagram and tag me at the imperfect pod.
[00:54:50] Again, if you enjoyed the episode worlds to me, if you took 30 seconds to press the follow button, subscribe button, or leave a review, and about the Facebook group link in the description below, if you'd like to join a community where we continue these conversations, uh, again, it's direct access to a lot of the guests.
[00:55:07] I've had on the show, um, including last week's Joshua Shea, the porn, uh, addict recovery coach. Um, so feel free to join through the link in the description below. And I look forward to seeing you next week.